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- Comic Book Rumbles
- Thread starterT51R
- Start dateFeb 7, 2018
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T51R
BANNED
- Feb 7, 2018
- #1
So, I was reading through some of my Baki collection and it hit me: a big part of the Baki theme is "whoever is stronger is righteous."
I call it the "Hanma Premise," for lack of a better description. And its an unanswered question within the superhero genre.
As in, you can only be arrested because your own strength is less than that of 2 other people.
BUT. If your strength was greater than the 10 people sent to arrest you(i.e. you could easily put them on the ground, or worse...) Does that automatically make your actions righteous, if your are physically beyond any force that can be sent against you?
i.e. A President of a country is only a normal person, but is strong because of their popularity and hence, is supported by the majority if a community. On his own, a President is very weak.
What if you were stronger than the community, would it make you more powerful than the President that community supports?
***Yes, this idea stemmed from the page where Donald Trump swears the Oath of Friendship to Yujiro and the Hanma family.
Carabas
BANNED
- Feb 7, 2018
- #2
T51R said:
BUT. If your strength was greater than the 10 people sent to arrest you(i.e. you could easily put them on the ground, or worse...) Does that automatically make your actions righteous, if your are physically beyond any force that can be sent against you?
No. That would just make you an evil psychopath who really should be arrested.
Sharpandpointies
The Weeping Mod
- Feb 7, 2018
- #3
Carabas said:
No. That would just make you an evil psychopath who really should be arrested.
Works for me.
Nik Hasta
Legendary God of Pirates
- Feb 7, 2018
- #4
Righteousness is not derived from power.
Morals aren't derived from power either.
You could be literally god and your actions wouldn't intrinsically be moral or correct. You would be able to impose your will upon the world but this would not make you correct because morals are defined by interactions with other humans and, if anything, a power imbalance makes morality harder to maintain.
True morality or righteousness is being able to prove the morality of your choices in the face of someone with equal power. That's the real test of ideas.
Sharpandpointies
The Weeping Mod
- Feb 7, 2018
- #5
Nik Hasta said:
Righteousness is not derived from power.
Morals aren't derived from power either.
You could be literally god and your actions wouldn't intrinsically be moral or correct. You would be able to impose your will upon the world but this would not make you correct because morals are defined by interactions with other humans and, if anything, a power imbalance makes morality harder to maintain.
True morality or righteousness is being able to prove the morality of your choices in the face of someone with equal power. That's the real test of ideas.
Another fine post. Well-put, Nik.
Guy1
Rumbles Moderator
Staff member
- Feb 7, 2018
- #6
Nik Hasta said:
Righteousness is not derived from power.
Morals aren't derived from power either.
You could be literally god and your actions wouldn't intrinsically be moral or correct. You would be able to impose your will upon the world but this would not make you correct because morals are defined by interactions with other humans and, if anything, a power imbalance makes morality harder to maintain.
True morality or righteousness is being able to prove the morality of your choices in the face of someone with equal power. That's the real test of ideas.
T
The Chou Lives
The Undead One
- Feb 7, 2018
- #7
Knowing what is right and wrong, then doing what is right, without promise of reward is selfless.
That’s your righteousness.
The Hanna thing is for psychos/murder hobos. Baki is not one about morality but really gross muscle men beating each other senseless/ to death. Not one for moral high ground
Nik Hasta
Legendary God of Pirates
- Feb 7, 2018
- #8
Sharpandpointies said:
Another fine post. Well-put, Nik.
Cheers! I do like to chew over ethics a bit every now and then!
Alan2099
Better than YOU!
- Feb 7, 2018
- #9
Comics for the most part suggest the opposite. It's always the less powerful guy, the under dog trying to bring in the more powerful out of control evil.
T51R
BANNED
- Feb 8, 2018
- #10
Nik Hasta said:
True morality or righteousness is being able to prove the morality of your choices in the face of someone with equal power. That's the real test of ideas.
Great insight!
I always struggled with this in my reading of Baki, because elements of the story seemed to boil down to a matter of personal perspective VS physical reality(i.e. Baki VS Pickle, where Baki only "won" because of the opinion of the spectators but if it were Musashi, Yujiro or Motobe commentating, in their opinion he would be the loser...after all it was a "death match" where the loser would get "eaten")
This theme is explored further in the most recent Musashi arc, where personal opinions of the fighters regarding the act of killing VS Musashi's reality of the taking of life,
i.e. Motobe defines "winning" as whoever gets to decide whether to end their opponent first.
Whereas Musashi's definition is "whoever is left alive at the end of the conflict."
Motobe later realized that Musashi could have made the decision at any time he chose, so his reality had to change(and we see his mental evolution while he watches Baki VS Musashi)
A lot is being explored here.
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Siriel
Myself
- Feb 8, 2018
- #11
While power largely does not define 'righteousness', everything below that point in your post is largely correct.
T51R said:
I call it the "Hanma Premise," for lack of a better description. And its an unanswered question within the superhero genre.
As in, you can only be arrested because your own strength is less than that of 2 other people.
BUT. If your strength was greater than the 10 people sent to arrest you(i.e. you could easily put them on the ground, or worse...) Does that automatically make your actions righteous, if your are physically beyond any force that can be sent against you?
i.e. A President of a country is only a normal person, but is strong because of their popularity and hence, is supported by the majority if a community. On his own, a President is very weak.
What if you were stronger than the community, would it make you more powerful than the President that community supports?
That is to say, if an individual is able to exert more power than a community, evidently they are also more powerful than someone whose power derives from the support of that community*.
If there existed such an individual that couldn't be stopped, it's logical that people would stop trying to enforce the laws upon them for the simple reason that it would be at best pointless, at worst actively counterproductive.
Or in other words; if Gorthor the Annihilator wants to eat burgers without paying and then spits on the ground as he leaves, he's not right in doing so but it's effectively better for the community to just let him do that than say no and be annihilated.
Might doesn't make right, but it does make ability to act.
*: Barring some sort of amplifier superpower, I suppose; let's not be nitpicky.
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T51R
BANNED
- Feb 8, 2018
- #12
Siriel said:
That is to say, if an individual is able to exert more power than a community, evidently they are also more powerful than someone whose power derives from the support of that community*.
If there existed such an individual that couldn't be stopped, it's logical that people would stop trying to enforce the laws upon them for the simple reason that it would be at best pointless, at worst actively counterproductive.
Which describes certain people within the Baki-verse perfectly;
-Yujiro
-Biscuit Olivia
-Baki
-Pickle
-Musashi
It also clarifies the concept of "Unchained" within that context.
Guy1
Rumbles Moderator
Staff member
- Feb 8, 2018
- #13
Siriel said:
Or in other words; if Gorthor the Annihilator wants to eat burgers without paying and then spits on the ground as he leaves, he's not right in doing so but it's effectively better for the community to just let him do that than say no and be annihilated.
Might doesn't make right, but it does make ability to act.
First thing I thought of.
T51R
BANNED
- Feb 8, 2018
- #14
Nik Hasta said:
You could be literally god and your actions wouldn't intrinsically be moral or correct. You would be able to impose your will upon the world but this would not make you correct because morals are defined by interactions with other humans and, if anything, a power imbalance makes morality harder to maintain.
This reminds me of Yujiro during the Raitai arc, where he makes it clear that no matter what anyone thinks, they can only keep their opinions to themselves because they can't force their idea of morality upon him, while at the same time, he proves the Chinese idea of righteousness "wrong" by not only beating the nation's best, but also their "ultimate," personified by Kaku Kaioh.
T51R
BANNED
- Feb 8, 2018
- #15
Carabas said:
No. That would just make you an evil psychopath who really should be arrested.
Ah, but what if no-one could arrest this person?
Is a person "evil" or a "psychopath" if we cannot physically force our labels on him or her?
*This is derived from the scene where the police try to arrest Musashi at Tokugawa's house, where Musashi makes all the police scramble away with his shout alone. Here he is under arrest for Retsu Kaioh's "murder"
Nik Hasta
Legendary God of Pirates
- Feb 8, 2018
- #16
T51R said:
This reminds me of Yujiro during the Raitai arc, where he makes it clear that no matter what anyone thinks, they can only keep their opinions to themselves because they can't force their idea of morality upon him, while at the same time, he proves the Chinese idea of righteousness "wrong" by not only beating the nation's best, but also their "ultimate," personified by Kaku Kaioh.
I mean, Yujiro didn't win. Kaku Kaioh induced a death state on himself, stole Yujiro's satisfaction and then revived himself later. Yujiro lost because Kaku Kaioh outsmarted him.
T51R said:
Ah, but what if no-one could arrest this person?
Is a person "evil" or a "psychopath" if we cannot physically force our labels on him or her?
*This is derived from the scene where the police try to arrest Musashi at Tokugawa's house, where Musashi makes all the police scramble away with his shout alone. Here he is under arrest for Retsu Kaioh's "murder"
You're conflating the viability of punishment with inherent mortality of an action. See my point about being god, you could be completely free of punitive action but your actions would still be morally reprehensible.
To take a more grounded approach, Stalin committed unspeakable crimes against his people and enjoyed a quasi-divine status in terms of the amount of power and cultural influence he wielded over his people.
He was never punished for anything he did and many of his people continued to love him despite his awful actions.
Does this make his actions morally correct? No. He was an evil man who killed millions of people with no repercussion. Just because there is no inherent system of judgement doesn't make your actions morally justifiable.
Can you make them happen? Sure. Is it right to do so? No.
Carabas
BANNED
- Feb 8, 2018
- #17
T51R said:
Ah, but what if no-one could arrest this person?
Then he still would be an evil psychopath.
Is a person "evil" or a "psychopath" if we cannot physically force our labels on him or her?
If this person acts like one? Hell yeah.
*This is derived from the scene where the police try to arrest Musashi at Tokugawa's house, where Musashi makes all the police scramble away with his shout alone. Here he is under arrest for Retsu Kaioh's "murder"
I have not even the faintest clue who any of these people are. But this Musashi person doesn't really seem al together well in the head.
T
The Dork Knight
BANNED
- Feb 8, 2018
- #18
"Righteousness" is subjective and unquantifiable
But "being right" is pretty much the side/person/thing with the most power who decides what "right" or "wrong" is. Real life example is WW2 where neither side was particularly worse than the other but the losing side was painted as villainous (despite the winning side doing more or less the same thing on a lesser or greater scale depending on specific cases). History is written by winners
Carabas
BANNED
- Feb 8, 2018
- #19
I think you might have the first and second World War mixed up.
T
The Dork Knight
BANNED
- Feb 8, 2018
- #20
Not at all
In fact somewhat ironically the very crux of the criticism aimed at the losing side (racial discrimination) carried on 2 decades after it ended for them, in allied countries even without going to outliers like South Africa. Nor were concentration camps for a particular race used for the last time in WW2, or by the losers alone. And that's not even considering war time allies who were later declared enemies and the delightful concept of ethnic clean- equality they supposedly followed in "classless" states
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